Bwana Sebasoni Serviliyani ni umusaza w’imyaka 75, akaba ari umujyanama w’ishyaka FPR mu birebana n’itumanaho. Yagiranye ikiganiro n’Ijwi ry’Amerika taliki ya 29 gicurasi 2005, ku birebana n’ibibazo u Rwanda ruhanganye nabyo, bishingiye kuri jenoside yo muri 94.
Ikibazo kivugwa ubu ni icy’itahuka ry’impunzi z’Abanyarwanda ziri muri Congo zasabye imishyikirano na guverinoma y’u Rwanda. Muri FPR mukibona mute, cyane cyane ko hari abavuga ngo FPR ntiyatashye imanitse amaboko, na bo nta mpamvu zo kumanika amaboko?
Mu by’ukuri ntabwo cyari gikwiye kuba ikibazo. FDLR ni abantu muri 94 bari mu ngabo z’u Rwanda zitwaga FAR za Habyarimana. Les FAR bamaze gutsindwa, baraboneza bajya muri Congo, bajyana n’abantu benshi cyane. Bahageze batangira gutegura uburyo bazongera bagasubira mu Rwanda ngo barwigarurire, ndetse bashobore no kurangiza genocide nk’uko bamwe muri bo babivugaga. U Rwanda rwaje gusaba communaute internationale ngo ibakure ku mupaka, ntiyabikora, U Rwanda rurabyikorera, rurahabakura. Icyo gihe impunzi nyinshi zasubiye mu Rwanda, izindi ziranga, ari zo zirimo abari muri FDLR. Abo bantu rero ni impunzi nk’izindi, bafite uburengenzira bwo gutaha kuko amategeko u Rwanda rugenderaho abibemerera. Nta mpaka zikwiye kugibwa rero kuri iryo tahuka. Nta we bagomba kubisaba bagomba kuza mu Rwanda uko bashatse. Imishyikirano rero mu Rwanda ntawumva icyo yaba igamije cyangwa yaba ishingiyeho. Umunyarwanda wese uri hanze afite uburenganzira bwo gutaha, udashatse gutaha kandi, akaba yajya mu kindi gihugu, akakibamo ari Umunyarwanda, bakamuha ibyangombwa, cyangwa se agafata ubwenegihugu bw’icyo gihugu.
FDLR yo ivuga ko ishaka gutaha nk’ishyaka rya politiki
Igisubizo cy’icyo cyifuzo kiri mu mategeko y’u Rwanda. U Rwanda ni igihugu cyigenga. Gifite amategeko kigenderaho nk’ibindi bihugu. Muri buri gihugu hari itegeko rigenga gushyiraho imitwe ya politiki. Ntabwo rero u Rwanda rwahindura itegeko nshinga kubera abantu bashaka gutaha. Nibaza bakagera mu Rwanda, bafite uburenganzira nk’abandi bose bwo gushinga umutwe wa politiki bakurikije amategeko ariho.
Bamwe bavuga ko uko FPR yanze kumanika amaboko ari na ko na FDLR ifite uburenganzira bwo kutayamanika. Mubivugaho iki?
Ntaho bihuriye. Mubyibuke neza, impunzi zatashye muri 90 ubutegetsi bwo mu Rwanda bwari bwaranze ko zitaha. Perezida Habyarimana ubwo yari yaravuze ko mu Rwanda ari hato, ntabandi bashobora kuhaza. Iyo babwira impunzi z’icyo gihe bati nimutahe, ntawe mwatse uruhushya, mugaruke mu gihugu cyanyu, ntabwo bari kugira impamvu yo kuza bafite intwaro. Inkotanyi zafashe intwaro kuko nta bundi buryo bwari busigaye. Iyo biba byanditse mu itegeko nshinga ry’icyo gihe, ko Umunyarwanda wese ashobora gutaha uko ashatse, ntabwo Inkotanyi ziba zarafashe intwaro. Ziba zaratashye mu Rwanda, zigasubirana uburenganzira bwazo bwa buri muntu kuba mu gihugu cye. Ntawabigereranya rero.
Umukuru wa FDLR, ubwo aherutse mu karere k’uburasira zuba bwa Congo, bamubajije icyo bazakora Leta y’u Rwanda yanze gushyikirana na bo, avuga ko bazataha ku ngufu. Mwiteguye imirwano?
Oya nta mirwano. Ibyo ngibyo byararenze kuko ubwabo baherutse kubivuga i Roma ko batagitekereza kurwanya u Rwanda. Ni ibintu bishimishije, bazatahe kandi bazakirwa neza, bagire uburenganzira nk’ubwo Umunyarwanda wese, hakurikijwe amategeko agenga igihugu. Iby’imirwano byo byararenze, cyereka niba bisubiyeho.
Umukuru wa FDLR avuga ko byaba igihe guverinoma yakanga gushyikirana na bo.
Muri iyo mishyikirano se bavuga iki? Gutaha nta we ubisaba. Ubwo bavuga demokarasi. Ntabwo tukiri ku ngoma y’abami n’ibinani. Ni rubanda rutegeka u Rwanda rukishyiriraho abayobozi. Demokarasi rero kugira ngo uyigereho, ibyiza ni ukuza mu Rwanda, ukaba nk’abandi baturage, mukayubaka. Ntabwo wavuga ngo nzaguma hanze, kugeza igihe mu Rwanda hazaba habaye demokarasi. Muri iyi si demokarasi yubakwa buri munsi. Ubwo se izaba igeze he kugira ngo batahe?
None se niba banze bakaguma hafi y’umupaka muri Congo bizagenda bite kandi bagifite intwaro?
Bashatse bashobora kuguma muri Congo. Itegeko nshinga ry’u Rwanda rivuga ko udashatse gutaha mu Rwanda ashobora gukomeza kuba Umunyarwanda mu mahanga. Ikindi ashobora gufata ubwenegihugu bw’igihugu yahisemo. Ariko rero niba bagumye mu gihugu icyo ari cyo cyose, bagakomeza imigambi yo kurwanya u Rwanda, tuzaba dusubiye inyuma dukurikije ibyo bavuze. Icyo gihe u Rwanda ruzakomeza politiki rumaranye imyaka, rugira ruti:
“Nibatahe, nibadataha tuzabarwanya nibakomeza kurwanya u Rwanda.”
Inkiko gacaca murazibona mute?
Gacaca ntabwo yumvikanye neza. Kumvisha abaturage inkomoko ya gacaca, icyatumye Abanyarwanda bemeza gukoresha gacaca, n’inshingano za gacaca ni ngombwa. Ikindi ni ibice bya gacaca uko bigiye bikurikirana. Kugeza ubu rero Abanyarwanda barabyitiranya. Naho guhungabana nta we byatangaza kuko bikomoka ku cyaha cya Genocide. Gucibwa urubanza rwa genocide nta we bitatera ubwoba. Ariko inshingano z’abayobozi ni uguhumuriza Abanyarwanda.
Muzi ko hari igihe za gereza zari zuzuye, abanyamahanga bavuga bati ntimushobora kubacira urubanza, nimubarekure. U Rwanda ntirwemeye kubarekura, ahubwo rwashatse mu muco wa Kinyarwanda uburyo rwabacira urubanza. Ntabwo ari inkiko nk’izindi. Kuko si uguca imanza no guhana gusa. Perezida, wa ku munsi wa karindwi twibuka genocide yagize ati: “Muri gacaca ntituzahana gusa, tuzihana.” Inshingano ya mbere ya gacaca rero ni ugutuma Abanyarwanda bongera kubana. Si ukuvuga ngo tugiye gushaka abantu dukumunzure, dushyire mu munyururu. Inshingano ya mbere ni ugutuma Abanyarwanda bashobora kongera kubana. Indi nshingano ni uko abazaba bemejweho ibyaha bigaragara bazahanwa. Bazafungwa nk’uko bisanzwe.
Igice cya mbere cy’inkiko gacaca ni ugukusanya amakuru. Ni ukuvuga kumenya uko twageze muri genocide, kugira ngo tutazongera kuyigwamo. Hari abantu rero bihuta ubungubu, umuntu wese batumiye muri gacaca kugira ngo avuge ibyo yabonye, atange amakuru, bakavuga ngo ibintu byacitse, bamureze muri gacaca. Ibyo kurega bizaza hanyuma, haze no kuburana, guca urubanza no kujurira. Umuntu rero utaracibwa urubanza ntushobora kuvuga ngo gacaca yamuciye. Ni cyo gituma ubona hari abakomeza gukora imirimo yabo nk’uko bisanwze. Igihe cyo kuburana nikigera bashobora kuburana bagatsinda, bagakomeza akazi kabo.
Naho kugira ngo umuntu wese wahamagawe muri gacaca ngo ibintu byacitse agomba kwegura, guhunga, ni ukumva gacaca nabi. Ni uguhozaho rero, gusobanurira rubanda inshingano za gacaca. Ni ngombwa gusobanurira abantu bihuta, bashaka ko ibintu bicika. Kuvuga rero ko hari abahahamuka birumvikana kuko hari abafite ubwoba bwo gusobanura ibyo bakoze muri 94. Abongabo muri gacaca nibamara kuvuga ibyo bakoze bakabisabira imbabazi, bazasinzira. Naho ubu ntibasinzira.
Gutanga imibare y’abashobora kuzashinjwa kimwe no gutanga lisiti y’abayobozi bashinjwa bategekwa kwegura ntibishobora gutera ibibazo?
Iby’abantu bashyizwe ku rutonde bagashyikirizwa MINALOC bayisaba ko begura ni ubwa mbere mbyumva. Kandi sinzi niba abashinzwe gacaca ari ishingano zabo kuvuga ngo kanaka niyegure. Kwegura bishobora kubaho; hari umuntu wakumva ko ibyo ashinjwa adashobora kubibangikanya n’ibyo yari asanzwe akora, noneho akabaza umutima we, akegura, cyangwa undi ntiyegure. Ni na yo mpamvu bahamagara abantu bari bakomeye kuko bashobora kuba barusha abandi kumenya ibyabaye. Si ukumurega cyangwa kumufunga. Abayobozi rero bafite inshingano zo guhumuriza rubanda.
Naho ibyaha byakozwe mu ntambara ko hari abavuga ko bikwiye kujya muri gacaca ?
Icya mbere twemera ni uko ibyaha byose bigomba guhanwa. Ariko ibyaha byose ntabwo ari bimwe. Uvanze ibyaha bya genocide n’ibyo abayihagarikaga wayobya abantu. Kwica umuntu muri genocide si kimwe no kwica umuntu aje kukwiba nijoro.
FPR igira uruhe ruhare m’ugukemura ikibazo cy’abari abasirikari bayo baba barahohoteye abaturage?
FPR nta bwo ariyo ishinzwe ubucamanza mu gihugu. Ni umutwe wa politiki nk’iyindi. Ibyo ngibyo hari Leta ibishinzwe, kimwe na minisiteri y’ubutabera. Niba abantu basanga bidasobanutse bihagije, bashobora kubibwira abo Leta yashinze gusobanura ibya gacaca. Abaturage kandi ntibakwiye kugira ubwoba bwo gutanga ikibazo cyabo. Kuko kubaza nta cyaha baba bakoze.
Ikirego cyatanzwe k’urupfu rw’Abasupanyoro [ndlr: Espagnols] ubu ngo cyaremewe. Mwabyakiriye mute?
Ibyo bintu bigomba gusobanuka neza. Ntabwo ari ukuvuga ngo abacamanza b’Abesupanyoro barabyemeye. Icyo umucamanza yemeye ni uguperereza akareba niba koko abo Besupanyoro baraguye mu Rwanda cyangwa mu bihugu birukikije, hanyuma akamenya n’ababishe. Iryo perereza nirirangira ni bwo kurega bizabaho, barega kanaka na kanaka, w’aha n’aha, watwiciye abantu aba b’aba. Ni aho bigeze kandi icyo nzi ni uko uwo mucamanza afite imigambi yo kuza mu Rwanda, akabaza niba Abanyarwanda na bo baraperereje, n’icyo bagezeho. Nzi kandi ko uwo mucamanza yifuza gufatanya n’ubucamanza bwo mu Rwanda kugira ngo basobanure neza ukuntu abo bantu bo muri Espagne bapfuye.
Mu Rwanda mubona hari ikibazo cy’Abahutu n’Abatutsi?
Kirahari. Aho gikomoka ni uko cyera twitwaga Abanyarwanda gusa. Ntabwo kera wabazaga umuntu ubwoko bwe ngo akubwire ngo ndi umuhutu cyangwa Umututsi. Bifite aho byaturutse; Abazungu ni bo babiteye. Muri 59, ni bwo byakomeye, Kayibanda ashyiraho ishyaka ry’Abahutu gusa. Ni aho byakomereye. Abafite imyaka muri za mirongo ine ubu ngubu, ni byo barerewemo. Umunsi Abanyarwanda bazasanga ko nta nyungu zo guhangana hagati y’Abahutu n’Abatutsi, icyo kibazo kizaba kirangiye. Ariko ntabwo byoroshye. Bizafata igihe kugira ngo bijye mu mitima y’abantu. Hari abantu babirerewemo k’uburyo kubibavanamo bizafata imyaka myinshi cyane.
FPR ishinjwa ko mu mikorere yayo yikundira gukoresha abantu igira ibikoresho. Urugero ni urw’abantu bagaragaraho ibyaha.
Ibyo ni ukuvanga ibintu. Iyo FPR igiye gukoresha umuntu ntimubaza niba ari Umuhutu cyangwa niba ari Umututsi, cyangwa se niba afite ibyaha ibi n’ibi. Igira iti: “Akazi mfite ni aka n’aka, uzi kugakora cyangwa ntubizi? Niba ubizi dushobora kugukoresha.” Nabivuze, FPR ntabwo ari ubutabera bw’u Rwanda. Birashoboka ko hari abantu benshi bakoze ibyaha bya genocide mu Rwanda. Ugiye kuvuga ngo nzakoresha umuntu w’umwere, wategereza ko imanza zose zizarangira kugira ngo tugire umuntu dukoresha. Niba umuntu afite ibyo abazwa, ntabwo byabuza ubutabera kumukurikirana aho ari hose, haba muri FPR cyangwa ahandi. Kuko gukeka si byiza.
Abakuru b’u Rwanda bategura akazaza kabo bate ko uvuyeho usanga afite ibibazo, aho kuba afite icyubahiro mu baturage yayoboye?
Bakwiye nyine gukora k’uburyo bagomba kurangiza neza. Kera mu Baromani hari umuntu w’umukene batumiraga mu birori, bakamwibutsa bati: “Ubu ngubu urakomeye cyane, ariko abantu ntibabipfana.” Mu Rwanda hari ikintu cya culture du silence [ndlr: umuco wo gutinya kuvuga], abaturage bagatinya kuvuga icyo batekereza. Byacika bite?
Kuvuga harimo ibintu bibiri. Nta we uzaguhora ko wavuze ukuri cyangwa wabajije. Ariko rero ushobora kubivuga n’ubushizi bw’isoni cyangwa nta cyubahiro gihagije; ushobora no kwibagirwa ntiwiramire, ibyo uvuga bikarenga ibyo utekereza. Ntabwo Abanyarwanda baceceka kurusha abandi. Nta n’ubwo ari abaswa kurusha abandi. Ibihugu byose nabonye, iyo ibintu bikomeye, ugomba kubyitondera kubivuga. Ntabwo ugomba guhubuka ngo uvuge uko ubonye. Natanga urugero. Mu Rwanda hari ibintu byinshi bidatunganye. Kubivuga si bibi. Ariko kubivuga utuka ababishinzwe ubwo uba ukabije. Watuma bitanahinduka kuko nta mutima mwiza ubivuganye.
FPR iri mu bashinjwa ko yaba yaragize uruhare mu guhanura indege ya Habyarimana. Kuki idafata iya mbere ngo ikore ankete cyangwa isabe ko iyo ankete ibaho kugira ngo icyo kintu kive mu nzira?
FPR inkotanyi ntiyigeze iregwa imbere y’urukiko ko yahanuye indege ya Habyarimana. Umunsi yarezwe, iziregura. Ntabwo rero wahora unyomoza ibintu, kereka utagira ikindi ukora. Ntacyerekena na kimwe ko FPR yahanuye iriya ndege. Ahubwo hari ibintu byinshi byerekana ko nta nyungu yari ibiftemo. Kuko n’iyo ibishaka ntabwo yari kubishobora bitewe n’aho yarasiwe, n’aho inkotanyi zari ziri. Byari kuba igitangaza.Cyakora hari abantu bishyizemo ko nta kintu cyananira Inkotanyi. Ngo bashatse no kwica Mungu bamwica. Naho ankete uwashaka wese yayikora; ni uburenganzira bwe.
